The Porróncast
A Wine, Spirits and Non-Alc. Podcast spotlighting the stories of people who share the Porrón.
Hosted by Ryan Looper.
The Porróncast
Wine Tales of Salt, Stones and the Sea: An Albariño Masterclass w/ Manu and Encarna Méndez of Do Ferreiro
The superstar siblings, Manuel and Encarna Méndez from the iconic Albariño producer, Do Ferreiro give a masterclass on Albariño, the history of winemaking in Galicia, and their deep family history in Rías Baixas.
They go in-depth breaking down the various bottlings from their historic estate - including the bottling from their home vineyard dating back to at least 1790 (WTW!!!) that is bottled separately in select vintages and labeled '"Cepas Vellas."
In this episode we dive into the beginnings of Do Ferreiro, the importance of gastronomy, the secret age-ability of Albariño, and the future of this important estate.
For more info on Do Ferreiro, click here.
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The Porróncast is hosted and produced by Ryan Looper - @iamlooper
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For deeper information on any producer featured on this episode click here and search producer name
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If you find a Porrón on the back label of a bottle, it is imported to the USA exclusively by the spectacular importer and team @dmselections
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Original Music by Julian Tamers - @juliantamers on IG and Tiktok
Welcome to the Porón Cast.
Speaker 2:That's so good In sync. Manu and Ancarna from Doferedo here today talking about their state, Albarino Riesbaixas Salnes. It's going to be fantastic. Stay tuned, Manu and Ancarna from Doferedo in New York at Room 706. Welcome.
Speaker 1:It's great to see you both, thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about Doferedo. When was it founded? And where are you? Where is the estate?
Speaker 1:We are located in the heart of Salnes Valley in Meaño and our family has the winery since we have memory. So it really started properly in 1973 with my father and his father and later when he got married with my mother she was from a farmer's family and they could improve the plots, have more plots and be growing little by little, and nowadays we are working and owning 14 hectares of Albarino grape. And do you?
Speaker 2:have anything else, you worked with four red vines. As I remember, you made a red two or three years ago. Yes, my father.
Speaker 1:Manu is experimenting with reds as well, but he can explain better.
Speaker 3:It was only one variety, red variety, Caño Tinto. Caño Redondo is the name. It was amazing because to me it was a very nice information of the area Because 100 years ago the typical varieties that we had in our valley was red varieties like Espadeiro, La Brita Tinta, this Caño Tinto. It was very, very interesting to me to get more information and try to understand what happened in the area.
Speaker 2:Right to look to distant history, at what was going on in the area. And so we're in northwest Spain, we're in Galicia, we are very near the ocean where you can feel the ocean when you're in the vineyards of Dolfareiro, in this area. What is special about this place? You have the mother rock of granite, you have this ocean influence, but people talk about the fog and the seafood. What makes it so special for you?
Speaker 1:For us, this is like a perfect blending or a perfect dance between the seawater, the fog. The fog takes place in the Ponte Vedras Ría, which is something similar to a Norway fjord, to make like an image of the shape they're like the fjords in a sense.
Speaker 1:Yes, so this fog takes place in the middle of the ría. So this is like a fog made of very, very small drops of seawater and with the wind, with the breeze, it comes up to the hill and remains. Well, it covers the whole valley, but when the sun is coming, this fog is going to disappear. But there is a part of the fog in the top of the mountain that remains for three or four hours more sometimes. And when these fogs take place during summer months, especially July and August, it's amazing because it's like having half the bunch surrounded by small drops of seawater. So we have a tomadato sapo plot, which is amazing because it's the plot more far away from the sea, more high level.
Speaker 3:At first to us, high is around 250 meters.
Speaker 1:Yes, of course, sure yes because it's a valley, but this plot being the most faraway plot from the sea, who most represents the sea. So this is amazing for us. And this is also related to food, because in our area normally we eat a lot of seafood, a lot of fish. We have the concept of eat fresh food, always fresh seafood, fresh, whatever vegetables. So this is also a harmony with this salinity in the wine, because it's like a perfect pairing when you are going to have lunch, or it's amazing.
Speaker 3:Wine is gastronomy too, of course, for sure.
Speaker 2:We were just talking about this last night, how gastronomic experiences are a marriage you have wine, you have what's at the table. There's the people there's this whole encompassing thing that happens.
Speaker 1:We have to think about something very important. The wine was made to have lunch, to share. In our town, every house has a small winery in the basement and everyone used to make wine for home-consume. So it's part of our culture, really, and it was something you did to have lunch, to offer a glass of wine to a friend that comes to visit you to celebrate something happened, to drink with your friend or your partner when you are sad. So wine is always related to life, to day, a diary life. I mean, it's something very, very common. So, talking about tastings and these things, yes, it's okay, but never forgot that wine is to have lunch.
Speaker 2:I always feel my visits to Doferrero have all been incredible, but when we sit down to have lunch and just share a glass together and talk about wine, I feel like that's always the highlight. It's amazing to taste through all the tanks and taste a historic winery in the area and something that has a lot of electricity and shows vintage and all the things that great wineries do. But it's the moment that we share together and I really appreciate it because it's so special as your place and I think also your amazing cooks and you're very particular about what you put in your dishes I feel like this fish is from this place.
Speaker 2:This is the perfect time to have this type of oyster or whatever, and that just shows the kind of specificity and detail of Doferrero as an experience to me. I think it's a through line through everything, not just the wines.
Speaker 1:Of course it's through your life. Yes, it's a way of living for us. We were talking about this yesterday. We don't have another job. It's the only job we do. I mean, it is what we do since we are kids. We were talking to Noah that when you are a little kitten or family, the first job you have in your life is go to the vineyard during harvesting and spread the empty crates under the pergola. So this is the first job you have in your life and then, while you are growing up, you have different new jobs you can do. So it's funny, but it's what it is. It's what we do since we are kids.
Speaker 3:It's like this is the way, sure.
Speaker 2:When I first tasted. I want to circle back to Tomaradu Sapo, which is the highest, the furthest away from the ocean. I think one of the misconceptions about alborino in this area is that the closer it is to the ocean, the more salty it is. But, Manu, I think that that might be a misconception in some cases.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have another praxis and we have another theory that we can show in our wines. Laurido is the more close to the sea in Castrelo area in South of Cambados Castrelo, that's the name of the place, and this is very interesting because the kind of soil that we have so close to the sea is decomposed granite. This kind of soil gives more minerality of the wines, not salty. It's a nice concept that I want to explain in our wines. It's not the same minerality than salty flavors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they are different.
Speaker 3:So the salty flavors come from the sea. We can get with the highest plots, not from the more close plots to the sea sorry. So maybe the fog brings a little bit of salinity maybe totally For example, condado de Tea or Rosal very nice place to grow up alborino and another white varieties. It's not the same than Salnes because of the sea influence. The fog comes from the sea. The Condado de Tea or Rosal has an influence from the river Minas River, so this is a big difference.
Speaker 1:This fog is not salty as the fog we have.
Speaker 2:That is so interesting In terms of the kind of explosion of interest in alborino over the years. So I would imagine in 1973 to start a winery.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Obviously, this was a different time, a different place, much more of probably a struggle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was like being blind. I mean yeah, at that time perhaps you could heard about Rioja, or sometimes Rivera del Duero.
Speaker 3:Or Rivera, maybe it's older than Rioja, incredible.
Speaker 1:But we didn't have. Well, I mean we in general no. We didn't have the knowledge we have today, and it was doing things because your great grandfather, grandfather whatever did it, so you were basically repeating what they did.
Speaker 2:So there was a historical precedent that was passed down by your grandparents or whatever, and you would just do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was the tradition of doing things. And maybe quantity of grace was smaller, I mean, the quantity was, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Oh, in terms of what you were making was a lot less, or in terms of, in general, what people were going for. Were they going for quantity? Were they just trying to make wine? What was it like they?
Speaker 1:was trying to make wine to have wine for the whole year for home, and maybe some person with a big amount of plots maybe could sell the grapes to other winery, or, but perhaps not in the 70s it came later, I think.
Speaker 3:The 70s was. I believe that was the big explosion of the.
Speaker 2:Alvarino variety the bloom no, the bloom.
Speaker 3:Because in the 60s and 50s the red varieties was more important. Sure, because the red varieties was the diario.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the diary wine the reds.
Speaker 3:The Alvarino was at first one variety than I mean. It's like the Alvarino was a variety that some people could have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, everybody could afford to have Alvarino at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some people could have it and others couldn't, In terms of the trajectory. Now you've both been very involved in the winery. For how long now?
Speaker 1:Always.
Speaker 2:In terms of like the day-to-day business.
Speaker 1:I know you've always done something since you were you told the story.
Speaker 1:No, I study cookery, for example, because I love cooking, is what I like. And then I also love learning languages In general. I don't mind whatever the language is. If I have the choice to learn, it's perfect. So I don't know, it was around 2000,. Maybe 2004. Well, the winery was being bigger and my father said it's OK if you want to be a chef, but the winery is growing and we need someone here, so someone who can speak to other people in other languages and someone who takes a little bit of care of the visits. So I said, ok, I'm in and I'm here, that's great.
Speaker 1:Yes, and then Manu started with the winemaking, since he was quite little Officially 2012.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the beginning of the official date when you were 16 years old or something. I mean it is.
Speaker 3:My first vintage started driving inside the winery. Maybe it was in 2006. Yes, that crazy vintage 2006 was crazy Because all the machines break down. Oh my.
Speaker 2:God, this is what no one talks about, right? Everything breaks and we're all thinking, oh, you know this vintage, I don't know if it's as good as the other one we're tasting and we have no idea what happened behind the history of everything. Let's switch gears. What is? What is Cepas Vellas?
Speaker 1:OK, Cepas Vellas is the plot we have around the winery. It's the beginning of the Ferreiro really, because was the first plot my father had to start making wine. So in 1995 was the first time that we decided to separate Cepas Vellas from the Ferreiro. So Cepas Vellas means old vines, old vines in Galician language and for us the origin of the project.
Speaker 2:So my understanding is that there is a story that there is a vineyard planted. This vineyard was originally planted in 1785 or in the 1780s or something like that. Yeah, officially.
Speaker 3:We have a document that talks about this old vines. The year that described it is 1790.
Speaker 1:OK, just a few years ago. They talk about the house and the plot with the vineyards. On that time.
Speaker 2:And having stood in this vineyard, which I can stand, normally, the vines are so big. They're 200 plus years old, an average age. Maybe it's an approximate age, but they're 200 to 250 years old.
Speaker 1:Or maybe more. We don't know exactly, but potentially more.
Speaker 3:Because in that time in Meano the town hall was born.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was a fire and a lot of documents were lost because of the fire. So the town hall, the building, got burned.
Speaker 3:And burned sorry.
Speaker 1:And we miss a lot of important information really.
Speaker 2:So potentially it could be even older.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And this sounds like it's an anchor point for the winery, since it was the first plot and a lot of people, I think, in the marketplace, that no doferredo, no, the classic bottling, which is the one that is more readily and openly available in the US. But maybe fewer people know that you bottle the Cepas Vejas separately and have since 1995 in good vinegars.
Speaker 1:Sorry, we do it separately when the crop is big enough to do it. We have some missing crops of Cepas Vejas because the quantity of grapes was very small. So we blend all these grapes of Cepas Vejas. We blend it with doferredo. Cepas Vejas is always there, Even if we don't have Cepas Vejas alone itself. It's always in the ferrero when the crop is not big enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always try and describe Cepas Vejas as the foundation and it's a very special bottling. Of course it's something that can age, it shows differently and also it's notable.
Speaker 2:Of course we kind of roll through these details very quickly in the wine business often, but that the classic bottling that one could get out there for $35 retail or something like that, may have in many vinegars Cepas Vejas in it. 20%, 30% of 250 plus year old vines are in that bottling and I think it gives just more breadth, more texture. It's a really incredible bottling Could you talk about? Also the one of the newer iterations in the past five or seven years has been this terroir series.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because plots in Alitia can be smaller than this room. So we don't think about a plot as one singular plot, we think about a group of plots in the same kind of soil in the same area.
Speaker 3:So this is very interesting because we work only with Albarino 100%. We are in Salnez, in the medium south part of Salnez area and it's incredible the complexity of kind of soils that we can work in a small place. It's around 22 kilometers around our house and winery. That's very, very interesting because of the real influence of the soil on the variety. It's not the same. The knee soil, for example, Adina, comes from the Adina's area.
Speaker 1:The name of the place.
Speaker 3:And the kind of soil that we have in this small I don't know how to say it in English it's like a geological whim.
Speaker 1:You make it difficult, Manu. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3:It's like a joke.
Speaker 2:Sure yeah.
Speaker 3:Because this is only five plots in this incredible. Imagine a line of a different soil in Salnez, a start on a port and end up south of UK, and only the width is only 2.5 kilometers and we have five plots in this line, so it's essentially a stripe of soil that rolls through.
Speaker 2:that's 2.5 kilometers wide and you're saying it's nice soil.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or rather slate maybe.
Speaker 2:It's more easy to.
Speaker 1:It's not sadly that, but perhaps it's easier to get the image it's like an oxidated Sure.
Speaker 2:It's really easy to get the image when you taste it.
Speaker 1:Of course yes.
Speaker 3:Because the wine in this kind of soil? It's changed completely. The granite soils and sandy soils make wines more straight.
Speaker 1:Straight.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and on this special kind of soil the wines work more horizontal, wider.
Speaker 2:When I think of granitic wines, I always think of direction. Like a forward direction and an upward direction, sometimes in the palette, and then that makes a lot of sense because I do find more breadth in the adina.
Speaker 3:So adina and dos farados is the same plot selection.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's the same grape from the same plots.
Speaker 3:But the difference is the.
Speaker 1:The making process, the making process.
Speaker 3:The adinas only is stainless steel bath. Nine months or 10 months, inside the stainless steel bath with the fine leaves and dos farados is French oak barrels too, only two With 500 liters capacity. Only two, so 1000 liters 103.
Speaker 1:No 1333 bottles Exactly.
Speaker 3:Very, very small quantity. The interesting thing is this French oak it's no roast.
Speaker 1:No, it's not toasted.
Speaker 3:And we get more micro-oxygenation in the wine. It makes the wine more clear, wonderful.
Speaker 2:And are there any other bottlings people should know about? You've got classic. You've got adina.
Speaker 1:We have adina laurido the one with the compost, granite stone soil, then we have tomadados sapo. Tomadados sapo, the highest the highest with the fog, anything else, that's all so cepas veas tomadados sapo Adina laurido, dos farados Andos faradinos. Yeah, dos faradinos is the blending of 164 plots in one bottle.
Speaker 2:And when you don't make those terroir series wines, they're obviously rolled into the ferrero.
Speaker 1:Sorry, the ferrero is what it is because of these blendings. I mean the ferrero. We started making these separated wines to explain why the ferrero is what it is.
Speaker 2:To show the components of what's happening before.
Speaker 1:To introduce you the ingredients, and then the bake is here.
Speaker 3:Sometimes the evolution of the ferrero. Maybe it's more complex than special wines. Of course Depends on the vintage.
Speaker 1:Because it's the blending of all of them, the complexity is bigger.
Speaker 2:Let's take a quick break and come right back. I want to talk about albarino with age, so we'll be right back in a second. You are listening to the Perón cast. We're here with Manu and Karna from Del Ferreiro. We'll be back in one second. All right, now we're back. That was fast. Albarino with age we had a moment yesterday. Oh yeah, it was actually two moments. Yes, first we talked about all the vintages of Cepas Veyes and came to understand some of the vintages that it wasn't made, and I was blown away, first of all by your fluency every vintage, which is very impressive to me. But then we went out and we put it in front of people and I think albarino with age is something that maybe 99% of the industry doesn't think about. They don't think about cellaring albarino, they don't think about pouring something that's got a little bit of age, what happens to albarino as it ages?
Speaker 3:At first I want to say one thing, and I believe that it that's, it's very important Sunness and and the appellation reass by chassis, so young to know, we. It's. It's true that Deplation increase a lot in in a short time. We have to work more and and try to explain All these, all these nice ideas. For example, a very new can evolution, very good inside the bottle when was the appellation formed? In 1986 officially.
Speaker 2:Great, and your dad had a lot to do with that. The forming of the appellation yeah, I think that's really important to say is that people think of this as Oftentimes in Spain. In general, I find that people don't understand how young some of the appellations are. It's pretty incredible when you start actually paying attention. Oh, one thing that someone asked me. I know the answer, but I want to hear from you a little bit about do ferreiro, what that means and why the estate is named the footer.
Speaker 1:I don't know ferreiro is something quite funny because my grandfather was the blacksmith of the town, so the ferreiro Ferreiro is literally a blacksmith, so the nickname of the family was the blacksmith family. So when, when my father started like making wine for a living, okay, the appellation is coming. So we need a brand, we need a name, and many friends was suggesting like you can use, for example, the Duke of whatever, or the Marqués, or my father was like come on, you're, you're kidding. I'm going to arrive to the winery in the tractor, plenty of dust, and I'm going to be the Duke of what the earth, come on. And One of my grandfather's closest friend. He was Talking, watching them, listening, and suddenly he said but you are idiots, the name is done. Everyone arrives here and ask what is the ferreiro song house, what is the ferreiro's family Winery, whatever? So the name is done. The ferreiro al barino ferreiro is the name. It's done. You don't have to think about anything. Just print a nice label and and that's all.
Speaker 2:That's great, do ferreiro. I think a lot of people just know the name. Yes, and they don't know the the history of it. Let's get back to al barino. With age, so it's a young appellation. There's a lot of work to be done. I'm also guessing the vineyard work has gotten better over the last 10 to 15 years. Is that true?
Speaker 3:It's totally true. To me, the important thing when when I make wine is the viticulture part. So the 19, ninety-five percent of the quality on on the wine comes from the vineyard not from the winery.
Speaker 1:If you are. We always try to make a good example easy to understand for everyone. If you are going to do an apple pay, you are going to to get the best apples. You're not going to do An apple pay with right in apples.
Speaker 2:You you make an apple pie with the greatest apples that you can find.
Speaker 1:You make any dish with the best Ingredients that you can find yes, and put together and the better they are, the better the result is but you know the the thing is, of course, the the grape is is so important. The quality has to be perfect, because if you have bad quality grapes, you are not going to have a good quality wine, obvious sure, and that's when I think you have to intervene a lot in a winery.
Speaker 3:That's another idea. At first we we have to work very good on the vineyard. But the second part is respect hundred percent the soils.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's very important.
Speaker 3:They talks more than us.
Speaker 2:The soil speaks more than yeah and I think do for a row is a great example of this. So we tasted yesterday 12, 13, 14 classic doferrero. We tasted 15 sepas vellas. We tasted 21 sepas vellas. What does one find in a 10 or 11 year old albariño from doferrero?
Speaker 1:Basically in these vintages of regular doferrero yesterday we had the 12, the 13 and 14, we think the common characteristic of these vintages was the cold weather during the growing process. And then 2012 was missing of sepas vellas. So sepas vellas grapes are in doferrero, 2013 was separated and 2014 was with sepas vellas inside doferrero. So it was like a very curious tasting to see three cold vintages and the evolution is completely different from one to the other.
Speaker 3:Another thing that I believe that is very interesting is that all people know that albariño is so, so powerful of freshness and aromas. But the other idea that we believe a lot is that when you have a very good structure in balance in the wine, the aromatics are not that important.
Speaker 1:Aromas are not so important.
Speaker 3:It's more important, the textures. And the other thing that I believe that is the most important is respect the vintage. So it's not the same cold vintage, warm vintage and, for example, 2012, 13 and 14,. The range was more or less, the quantity was the same.
Speaker 1:The same amount of rain.
Speaker 3:The rains comes in different moments, so it makes a totally different vintage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because the peculiar characteristic of our soil is we don't have any clay on the subsoil, so all the rain we get is drained so fast that if you have, for example, a lot of rain in a short period of time, it's missing. But if you have a small quantity of rain tomorrow, next week, next week, even if it is less liters, the result is going to be better because it is coming like drop by drop when it's necessary. It's like a better invest in the same period of time.
Speaker 3:So at first I believe that we have two problems so we are so young, and the other problem is we have to write the future.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's real.
Speaker 2:It's true, and just hearing what people said yesterday I was already on a high after talking to you about vintages and having worked with these wines for many years now, since 07. But people were saying things like Ravineau, boudinon, keller as comparisons, and I think it's a special moment when you have something that a lot of people don't know about as a possibility this aged Alvarino idea and that takes quality. You have to put something of quality in the bottle to make it ageable. That's just how it is. You can't make something wacky and then all of a sudden, it's good, you know, 50 years later. But to hear people make these comparisons and have this experience was really thrilling for me, because you just don't get that opportunity so often with something that's a bit of a secret.
Speaker 1:And I think to me the feeling was how impressed people were after the tasting was unbelievable. I think no one was expecting that.
Speaker 2:For sure, and this honeyed quality that you get in the mid-palate. Sometimes it's a good quality. It's from a little bit of botrytis, the true, noble rot that happens for Cephas, veas, or from other things too. You have just the development of Alvarino. You have this petrol note that can come in with Alvarino. I had a long conversation with a winemaker in the US who I really respect, named Nate Reddy, who was talking about the way the grapes look. You know the speckle like riesling and just this kind of where the acidity, as you were talking about, starts to really integrate into the wine and it doesn't become the primary voice, it becomes much more enveloping and there's much more depth. I think it's an incredible opportunity for people to get into Alvarino as not just something that you drink when it's zingy and electric and oceanic at the beginning, but as it develops as well.
Speaker 3:Another idea that I believe that is very important. In our area, the normal concept that we have is acidity, freshness, acidity. That's very nice, but we are in a cold area. We need more extract. We need more, as you said, we need more sapidity.
Speaker 2:We need wines with more sapidity, which is something that has come up quite a bit over the years.
Speaker 3:Because the acidity is so easy to get Right.
Speaker 2:Acid is not the problem. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:No, the other way around.
Speaker 3:To get the balance is more difficult.
Speaker 1:The balance is the difficult part.
Speaker 2:This is something that I think I've had a fair amount of conversations with winemakers and people that really really are making soulful handmade wines Is that balance does not come from the alcohol in the back of the label. It doesn't come from someone yelling out the pH. It comes from how the wine is woven together.
Speaker 1:And that is.
Speaker 2:There's a little bit of mystery and magic in that.
Speaker 1:We always wait for the rain before harvesting. That that days of rain is the balance we need, because the acidity cannot be above the sugar degree before picking the grapes. It's something we need. We need rain, natural rain, yes or yes. So if we don't have these days of rain, go to sleep. I mean that's a very risk as well.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:Sometimes we know harvesting is taking place and we are still waiting for the rain, which is a big risk.
Speaker 2:It's worth it.
Speaker 1:It was yes.
Speaker 2:What is the future of Doferedo?
Speaker 1:We never know.
Speaker 2:Just a small question what do you want to say?
Speaker 1:I think we will keep on working, of course, learning, which is the base of everything. We need to learn a lot. We would like to keep on going with the tradition, of course, because it's the root, the beginning, the origin. It's always something you have to respect and maintain.
Speaker 3:To me, the future starts with the knowledge of the soils. When we have more knowledge, we can see on the distance where we are going to. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that. I really admire both of you. Thank you, I feel very, very blessed to represent Doferedo Well, thank you. Anytime I hold a bottle, I feel good. Anytime I sit and share your wines with other people, I feel good. I really appreciate you taking time to talk about Doferedo and your history and a little bit of the future.
Speaker 1:Of course, thank you. The future is coming.
Speaker 2:The future is here. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you, luper, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening to the Furno Cast. I'm your host, ryan Luper. This episode was produced by yours truly Theme music by the Julian Tamers. Special thanks to today's guests, the teams at Dumezon East and Dumezon Selections and all of the growers in the Dumezon portfolio. Remember, if you turn the bottle around, you find the Perron, it's Dumezon and if you have a Perron party, you should really share that thing. Quit hogging it. Okay, pass the Perron. If you like the podcast, you want to find it on one of the platforms, just search the Perron Cast, hit, follow. We got lots more to come. We're also on the Instagram at the Perron Cast. Look forward to sharing some more with you soon. Thanks.
