The Porróncast
A Wine, Spirits and Non-Alc. Podcast spotlighting the stories of people who share the Porrón.
Hosted by Ryan Looper.
The Porróncast
The Future of Rioja: Telmo Rodríguez on History, Family Heritage and a Terroir-Driven Revival
In this podcast, Telmo Rodriguez transports us through time, sharing how the vibrant spirit of the land beckoned his family to the winegrowing tradition against any logic in the 1960's at the iconic family estate called Remelluri. The tale unfolds, revealing ancient roots, a learning journey uncovering the nearly lost terroirs of Spain and contemporary resurgence as we peer into Telmo's captivating history and the familial bonds entwined with the land that inspired him.
It's a story of homecoming and heritage, of navigating the complex choreography of family-run winery dynamics, all while ushering in an era of newfound recognition revealing the treasure that is Remelluri, a rare organic and mountainous Rioja estate.
We explore the wine industry's new interest in village-specific Rioja. It's here we uncover the burgeoning appreciation for wines truly reflective of their terroir in Rioja forging ahead against the powerful market of generic Rioja, much like the celebrated artisans of Grower Champagne fighting the battle against the big houses.
Do you know where your Rioja is from?
A very important question that will decide the future in Rioja and is being answered through the work of Telmo, the growers, the next generation that is inspired to create a new narrative, and those that share the Porrón.
Follow us on IG: @demaisoneast and @theporroncast
The Porróncast is hosted and produced by Ryan Looper - @iamlooper
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For deeper information on any producer featured on this episode click here and search producer name
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If you find a Porrón on the back label of a bottle, it is imported to the USA exclusively by the spectacular importer and team @dmselections
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Original Music by Julian Tamers - @juliantamers on IG and Tiktok
Hola, welcome to the Varóncast.
Speaker 2:I love it. Hola, telman, fantastic. Tell me Rodriguez on the show today to talk about the future of Rioja, his family estate, remi Uri, and the recovery of hallowed terroirs in Spain. Stay tuned. What is the first vivid memory you have of Remi Uri?
Speaker 1:The first memory of Remi Uri was, I think, the first day we went there, my father went in a caravan. We were like hippies, we were really hippies and we went in a caravan, and because my father was buying Remi Uri. So really it's an amazing very, very long time ago.
Speaker 2:I have this. I went to Remi Uri the first time and it just struck me that I've been telling the story of Remi Uri for so long and I had never been able to translate the energy of what's there until I stood in the place, which I think is something that we do in the wine business a lot. There's a lot of words, but sometimes the experience of something is not served by the words, and I just felt so struck by Remi Uri.
Speaker 1:About them and absolutely, and you know when you say that, absolutely agree. You know my parents. They were not wine people but they were very, very sensitive. And my parents, they went to Remi Uri and I think it's a very beautiful history because the property was so energetic. There was so much energy that the property asked my parents to go into wine that it was not at all their intention when they arrived to Remi Uri. And I think it's everything that happens in Remi Uri is all about energy Because, you know, the men normally stays and lives in places where men were staying and in the history of Remi Uri is the property of the 14th century, the monks, the Roman sanctuary, 2000 years ago, the village of Remi Uri.
Speaker 1:That was the 11th century. You know, the Con de Ramell. So in front of the house in San Cristobal we have a mountain that we found some study on. My father was very, very amateur but he was a good archaeologist and he found the stuff from the Iron Age. So I think it's 3000 years before Christ. So at the end you realize it's an enclave. That's why, myself, I decided to start in wine, maybe because of the same energy of Remi Uri, because I was in the coast. I was a surfer and you know at the end why I was pushed to become a wine man. Oh man, maybe. Maybe it's the same energy that you feel when you went there.
Speaker 2:Your sister told a story very similar to what you just said, but almost just to put a point on it, that the property chose you, your family chose your parents. In a sense, they felt pulled to it, they felt compelled, even though it was a bit of a crazy thing to do, to buy this place in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 1:Absolutely agree. It shows us Remi Uri is in a moment that is going to jump and I think all these you know, last year I took my man because I did something quite nice I bought maybe the last enclave and I asked him to come to spend with me a few days and we were walking and my mother she's 87. We were walking a very nice day in the afternoon and my mother at the end we were going back to her home and she said you know, I knew, I knew that in Remi Uri there was a treasure. But I think this treasure you are trying to showing it now I think it was very, very, very nice and I feel very, very emotional, you know, with my mom and I, because my mom has been there for 60 years, or I think it was a very, very nice.
Speaker 1:I think we are now taking this treasure, this amazing gerald, and we are going to show this gerald now to all our you know the followers and people that they are supporting this amazing project. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, remi Uri has a name that people recognize and I think in the spectrum of Ryohai it's one of the names that people look for, know it's mentioned in the canon. But I also think that my interpretation, at least what I've observed is your journey of coming back to Remi Uri has had an impact. I mean, obviously it's your family property, but you went away and you found things, you created projects, you created a company called.
Speaker 2:Company of Devianos de Tomorodriguez. And I just wonder when you were on that journey, did you know you were going to come back to Remi Uri?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know. I think families are quite complicated.
Speaker 2:That's so true.
Speaker 1:Today.
Speaker 1:I realized that I was in fact, I was preparing myself to come back, I was learning, I was taking a lot of energy because at the end, I had to deal with brothers, and I think that today I came back because my brothers asked me to come. And they asked me to come because I did succeed in a certain way, and if it was in another way it would have been maybe not as easy and not as powerful, so I didn't take it in a very natural way. I think today I'm very happy because my parents were very happy that I came back, my brothers and I think today Remi Yurii is becoming something very, very special.
Speaker 2:I agree. What I'm tasting and what I'm seeing and what I'm feeling is that there's an inflection point going on when you left, or in your formational period, when you had gone away from the property and you went to school and you went to these incredible estates like the northern Shav, in the northern Rhone and Trevalon. And how did it inform you, did you find yourself going? This is a lot like Remi Yurii in a way, or was it just a new exploration for you?
Speaker 1:I think at the end, my background and what I did, my parkour, my journey, was very, very clear. You know, like the fact is very funny, rioja started going to Bordeaux in the 18th century, in fact, somebody from La Bastida and maybe with vineyards in Remi, yurii. So I went to Bordeaux because it was natural. That was a very important center of the analogy and the modern analogy started. It was born in Bordeaux, with Givera Galleon and Emil Peinox.
Speaker 1:And then I worked there. Then, when I was finishing my, let's say, the training with Incausastornel, bruno Pratt offered me to go to Chateaume Margot. Because they were family used to own Chateaume Margot. They joined the step family and I said, no, this is too boring for me, I want, I want that it was not my, it was not the moment for me and I decided to go to Hapuzi. Then I went to work with an artist. His name is Elvady Urbac.
Speaker 1:I wanted to work more with people. I was not interested in luxury, I was interested in people, in emotion, and in all this year that I was spending with Elvady Urbac, with all this group of amazing people you know the owner of Chateaume Margot, salangayo, the Chav family I think that for me it was very interesting because there were people that they were fighting for something. Elvady Urbac discovered a property. Chav the grandfather was fighting for, an impossible vineyard that was the slope of Hermitage and that was much more my. I needed that because I knew I was going to come back to Spain to fight. You know, to be Spanish is not easy.
Speaker 1:I think that we have an amazing country that nobody knows, and we have a country that we need to fight, and I've been fighting for 30 years and maybe I've been preparing myself to fight now with. Well, it sounds a little bit aggressive, but I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:It's a challenge, though my impression is that you like a challenge and that you embrace a challenge where there's some sort of force against something. Maybe it wouldn't succeed without a community and without some leadership in that community.
Speaker 1:I think you know that. You know I don't consider myself like. I think I was very lucky that my generation, we were maybe few or less and we had this. We were very lucky to touch the great wine world. And you know, at the end these are very nice sentences that I'm using now for a group of young kids from La Bastilla. It's a Basque sentence. It's es y cursi, es y casi. This is Basque. That means if you don't see, you don't learn.
Speaker 1:And that was a sentence in a very nice castle near my house, the Antoine d'Avadi, and I think that this is, you know, we were very lucky to see and I took a lot of. Well, not therefore, because for me it was a very beautiful to see, to learn and think we were the first, maybe generation that we were going out to see. Well, I think you know we've been very lucky and then very lucky to come back to a country that everything was to discover. You know, for me, all those trips in Galicia, in Gredos, in Malaga, has been. You know, I was feeling so lucky I didn't want to be in a place and you know, when I came the first time to Remigrini, my father told me look, we in this country we can make a great wine, because the country is not ready.
Speaker 2:Oh really, he said, you can't make a great wine.
Speaker 1:Yes, because the the market. The market doesn't want a great wine, the market wants a cheap Rioja, a little bit oaky. It's like when Francis Ford Cobble started with digital it was it was too early, and I think sometimes wines many things they need to be in the right time. For example, you know it was very successful when we did with Las Beatas. Las Beatas, I'm sure 20 years ago would have been a disaster. So at the end, you need to be there in the right moment with the right wine, and I think for me, maybe the moment for Remigrini was now.
Speaker 2:Timing is so important. What you were saying about the experience of seeing things and doing things and just that, informing the young folks and and how lucky you were just to be there with a lot of greats and be almost tactile you know it's there and you could touch it and see it and feel it that's very important. I want to take a quick break and then I want to talk about villages of Rioja and what's happening in Rioja right now. You're listening to the Peron cast with Tom Rodriguez from Remiri and company at Divinos Tamar Rodriguez and we're back.
Speaker 1:Here we are.
Speaker 2:We just finished launching Village specific Rioja, which is a journey that you started quite a few years ago. Why did that start for you?
Speaker 1:I've been five days no traveling. Working with them is on different cities, and yesterday was very nice because I, you know, we are having a quite this is being a very starting, very complicated way. The harvest and yesterday I saw they did it in Washington, you know in I saw in the bar hundreds of glasses of wine and it was a very beautiful picture, you know, and I did a video and to send to the grower, because Monday we started with Lindes and I sent a video and I told them look, I'm in Washington working for you and and for me. I, you know, I say, oh my god, it's fun. And I'm not here working for a remi Yuri, for me, for my wines. I'm working for the growers that they were harvesting and and I had a very, very interesting moment.
Speaker 1:I think when you travel like this, you learn a lot. Even talking to people, you learn a lot and I know you feed your at the end. Your mission. So yesterday was working for the first time for growers that never, never, a winery was working for them and I think this is a very beautiful idea. No, that's um here talking about villages, our growers, and my theory is a little bit Negative sometimes that I think that the big wineries and real kill the growers and kill the viticulture.
Speaker 1:And working for the growers and trying to do what we are doing in the remi Yuri, with trying to Show, not that, the faces of the people at the end, very simple, you know what I'm doing and I'm paying and paying more. We are paying two, three times more for a kilo of grape. That is what they need today. So you know, we are and and it's true that we are Revealing something, you know the idea that you did very well in the mason, that you created those maps. And you know, when you do a map and you put the villages in the map, suddenly a World that is completely Abstract because people doesn't know what is Rioja Reja that I said we don't know. It's like you show something that you don't really you need to see and For me, many times I I need to see.
Speaker 1:You know, in a piece of paper, a map, and suddenly you realize what is more northern, more near the mountain and and suddenly, you know, I, when I did the first map of lindes and now that we are starting with the 2020 vintage, I Saw something very clear and I saw, and I was explaining to that all our work is based in history and trying to know about what we were. And yesterday was very funny because I was telling the Crowd that all these project of villages I remember when I came back to remitting 2010, the first thing I did was it was to hire Somebody, an historian, and I said to look, I need all the information that you can find about Remiuri, the monastery, the divisa. Divisa was this fraternity. I want to know everything about the wine in la bastida, vicente saline y as avalos. And Suddenly, something abstract. When you read the story, it starts making sense and just, I was telling you know that la bastida, nobody knows, because nobody knows what is la bastida's mithante. Avalos is something completely desert, is empty. And I was telling that you know la bastida.
Speaker 1:In 1680 they were 330 growers. They were 260 underground sellers. That means that maybe last year one was one of the most important wine villages of Rioja. Today we have the cooperative, we have Torres making one I don't know from where. You have Garcia Carrion, other producer from La Mancha, using the name Riojas, kind of slogan. You know Rioja, so, but the history is there and Once you know the history Is you know a lot, and we saw documents that the vineyards in the different areas of la bastida Once they were much more expensive than others. At the end, the history is helping us to understand the taste of La Bastida, of course, of Rioja, and I think we are opening a door for something very, very exciting and very and very tasty.
Speaker 1:So I think this is we started without knowing an amazing journey and again, I think we Maybe the culture of the sensibility brings you into a scene that, if we are, I see, I think you know when my father was telling me that the country or the world is not interested, is not interested in a fine wine from Rioja. You know, you know, the. At the end, the most important part of the, of Every project, is the, is the consumer, is the market. You know, maybe one of the most important projects ever done in Rioja, or the, the Melo, melo Calavero.
Speaker 1:You know, I got, I got this label in my yes, my lab seen that it's a beautiful label that explains how ambitious they were they were, how clever they were in the 1860. But you know what happened with the Melo Calavero's, this beautiful project that they were right to do an amazing wine with a beautiful label, with a beautiful marketing. They didn't succeed because of the market. The consumer was not ready, like Francis Procobola.
Speaker 2:I Years ago when we started with La Bastida and Sami Sente early Vintage's maybe was 2010 yeah, I remember walking around and telling people about villages of Rioja and their eyes just could. They would glaze over. They Would hear something that's obviously so new, but they were used to a A generic Rioja conversation as opposed to a village. It didn't seem like it clicked and it wasn't just Lava Stina and San Vicente.
Speaker 2:I was talking about San Meniego and Esiego. But now To your point about timing and about the arc of things. I Don't see that same look on people's faces. I see interest, I See something. They know that that this is something that deserves that identity is Rioja, not these generic things, that there is something special there.
Speaker 1:Well, I think we we are in front of a very, very important Movement and project that is champagne. Champagne, that is exactly the same model than Rioja, that you have the big houses, the mason, or that they are style wines with very strong brands and suddenly we, we are discovering those small growers with villages, with crew, with vineyards, and I think it's very, but I think it's very positive and it's good for everyone. I think that is Amazing to see. Yesterday we were in a new restaurant in Washington French.
Speaker 1:You know I was talking to all the team and you know that is the distributor that there was no one champagne from a big house, there was no brand, and I think what is going on in Rioja I think we can is very parallel. You know, maybe we don't, we don't have the chance. That's, I think, champagne. They were very clever because it's a luxury product. They have the vineyards are classified in Grand Cru and premier crew and the prices are very high and they are in every single Wile list in the world. I think this is an amazing achievement. I think we're far away, but I think that is very interesting to you know, we are not telling something revolutionary. Where we are, we are start, we're starting to use the language that every Wine lover, every good sommelier, every nice little bar is. You know, I think we are. We are not crazy talking about this we are.
Speaker 1:We are. We are using the same language that every single interest in human wine is using. So there we're, adapting this language to our, our landscape, our you know, our taste. I think it's something very easy. You know, I remember you, even Amazon, you were.
Speaker 1:I start talking about six villages. You were. My god, tell me, you're crazy. How are we going to go to the market and we're going to talk about? I say, but don't worry, don't talk about six villages. We have to talk that this is an amazing opportunity to discover, to enjoy and to. Yes, I think is what is more interesting than to reveal one of the most amazing wine regions in the world and then to support the right people, the good people. I think if this is, you know, I see, in general an amazing movement. I mean because I thought it was going to be New York, the place now, but I think I think is even in Santiago de Compostela. It was two weeks ago or last week, and I, and I saw, you know, I did a small tasting in a, in a very nice wine bar. You know all the wines they were. They were no one single bottle of fun industrial wine for me. I was so happy, you know, I think that's.
Speaker 2:We got it, you know we that is really something that's that's changed, for sure.
Speaker 1:And I think it's going to be so exciting. I think you will have some of the most exciting wines in the world. I think, I think this is great, great news.
Speaker 2:Over time. I remember these Barolo conversations about traditional and modern or house style champagne versus grower champagne, or or even Rioja, where it was all about oak. Every conversation I would have someone would just get so fixated on how it was, how long it was in oak and what kind of oak, etc. And I just see that all of those conversations they had a time and a place. Frankly, they were kind of boring for me and I think for a lot of people it's. It's easy to know those things. They're black and white but finding identity and finding place and and you just said it non industrial styles have been the big change. And to have Rioja right there through the Lindes project and through other projects too, but Lindes is so specific, the spectrum of it, I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 1:I think we have to be very careful not to generalize. I think it's like to come to New York and say, oh hi, danny, hi, mcdonald's Burger King.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:Reanswer.
Speaker 2:Reanswer Preserver.
Speaker 1:I think there is an amazing world there waiting for you. Need to be a little bit educated and you need to have a little bit of curiosity. I think it's curiosity the most important thing.
Speaker 2:What do people not know about Rioja that you find yourself saying over and over and over again? What are the some of the? You talked about having 500 barrels or something the other day that I thought was an interesting tidbit. What are the some of the anchors of Rioja that you talk about now?
Speaker 1:You know, when you are trying to study and you know that you have in your hands a property from the 14th century.
Speaker 1:I think that gives you a perspective. And it's true that sometimes, you know, maybe it's because I'm becoming older I did, I was very critical and I was talking a lot about Rioja, this, that it's. I think I'm getting bored of myself. I'm getting bored and I'm very interesting in the origins and I, you know, always I said that you know this, this came back to the future. You know, I would love to be back to the future and to go to Rioja in in maybe 1700, you know, and I think it was something spectacular then and I think we have to stop the little things. You know, that's what became Rioja in the 70s and this idea that you know, rioja was handled by the Monet and by the Banks and and Rioja was very easy to make to be very successful, producing many millions of very, very poor wines. But I think this is I'm not interested to talk about this anymore. I think that you know, when you love what you do and you're walking beautiful vineyards and you, just you start understanding the history and I think this is, you know, this is the only thing that is really important, I think, for me. You know, I've been as you said. I've been like walking, discovering amazing places like Greto. We were the pioneers. We went to Malaga when nobody was making wine there. We went to Val de Horras in a very, very mysterious, you know, ballet. You know that you had the impression that, my God, I did discover here something amazing. But you know always, and it's why for me it's been so important, rioja.
Speaker 1:I think there is an amazing challenge and I think it's very beautiful too, because for me Rioja is not anymore a brand, it's not anymore all those you know political problems in the consejo or whatever. You know. I want to go back to the origins and you know, in La Bastilla was this woman you know, antonia Marcela de Alviz. You know that he did build a winery in 1780 and she was selling fine wine. I think for me those are the elements that pushed me to be more and more, you know, in love with Rioja that maybe could produce some of the most beautiful wines in the world. And I think you know it's an amazing privilege to be working in vineyards, that they were beautiful in 1420, you know this amazing project we did in Bordeaux, you know, to show to the fine wine world that we had all those. You know this history, this quality, and you know my father told me that the world was not ready for us, but I think now the world is ready for us.
Speaker 1:The success of Rioja in the last three years has been spectacular. You know a wine that you know. It was even more, I think, the results in this year, when we sold the 12th of September. And I think today, to be Spanish, not like in the past, that we have to say, oh, I'm sorry, I'm Spanish. Today, I think that we have to be very proud, but we have to be very proud from, you know, our landscape, our nature, and you know, and I think today I think it's Today is very, very interesting the new generation of young people. You know these young kids, that they are doing amazing things.
Speaker 2:That's one of the questions I kept getting this week when we were presenting the villages was are the young growers coming up? Going to be specific about villages? What is it? What is the next generation think of this?
Speaker 1:Of course, there is a generation doing an amazing job. That's why we see today wine from Biertzo, from Gravera Sacra, from Monsang, from everywhere, from Levante. You know, you know this is this generation that today they are, they have been in contact with the great wines. They love great wine. In fact, you know, everybody drinks now yoga and hamburgers in Spain. You know it's very boring, but I think there is a generation that is very, very.
Speaker 1:You know the Spanish. They are very excited, they are very excited and there are. You know, there's always a talent, a character in Spain. You know, when I was two weeks ago in Bordeaux, we did this tasting and we were our little group was the La Riva, we was Dalia from Alguera, ourselves, everybody was amazed to see the energy of the Spanish. You know, you had the guy from Antinori showing the Ornelaya. You know was also very, very well dressed, but you know, not very, not very exciting, and we were there. You know the Spanish. I tried to tell to the people, you know, they know, but this is amazing, we have some of the most beautiful vineyards in the world and the comment at the end of the tasting was oh my God, the Spanish guys, they are so excited you know, they are, so they know.
Speaker 1:But it was an energy and you know we create an amazing energy that then we went to London. It was the same and the success of the Spanish group was amazing. You know, in a moment that even you know Maceto or Opus One was struggling. I think there is an energy, there is a new generation that they are. They have a lot of ambition. We were saying that we didn't have. We didn't have the ambitions since the Medocala was in 1860. Today we have the ambition, because we had this kind of very dark moment from at the end of the 19th, 20th century, because ambition was just to make money. I don't think it's interesting just to think and wine just to make money. Today there is this ambition and we got the. You know, always, I insist, always, I say the same things Spain is a country with the majority of you know, the majority of insects, of animals, of. I think it's an amazing country that we don't know.
Speaker 2:It's true, discovery is so, so important now, and I see it every day with Spain and I. When we walk through a chestnut grove and stand in the Odiviso vineyard and the light hits the, this type of story and this type of experience. People are just more open to Spain now, and not the same old Spain. You see more Spain than before, which is wonderful. Where does your next project take you? What are you thinking about now? I know you have a lot on, you know you have many projects, but Well, first I think I, you know I'm.
Speaker 1:next I think two weeks, I'm 61. I think still needs a lot of energy is remajori. Yeah, Because I think in the beginning we have a lot of ambition, you know, to become something exceptional. So you should start all buying remajori to keep. It's better than to buy stocks.
Speaker 1:So, I love to think about the next generation. You know, even a remajori, or even even my. You know I'm very happy that my second son is now been trained, has been traveling, working with very nice people, and now he is really, really in the wine, and I think this is very nice. You know when, again, when you're Spanish you are not this seven generation you have to grand, grand grandfather of the next growers, if everything goes well, and you know there is some water left in the next 50 years. But I think that there is a lot to do.
Speaker 1:I think Linda's project is and you know, after this trip, I go back to Spain with a lot of ideas, because I realized that this project needs a lot of energy and it's financing, because you know they were asking me a lot. And so those wines, how are you going to age in a different way? And I say, yes, I think we should. The wines they need to. I need to buy some food or I need to do this and I need to separate. So at the end of the year, I think I can. I can. I'm coming back to Spain. I need another three million euros for the lindes, for my, for my growers. So at the end. It's true that this is a strategy you never is never ending.
Speaker 1:But you know, I, I, I realized that the lindes project, we could produce some of the finest wines of Rioja, because those villages, the growers, they are nice and they support and they are excited. I think you know those wines, they can become classics and I'm very, very good wine. So it's true that I am, I am a what's entrepreneur. You know, for me, I'm much more interested in this idea of discovering, of dreaming. I'm more, I'm more a dreamer than a wine maker. And then for me, you have to tell that when I do the fermentations, I find very boring, you know, to, to, to watch a tank and to see the temperatures on the, to the pumping hours. I think, I think it's not a very interesting part of my job. I think always that to dream is much more exciting.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, Thelma, for taking time to speak with us. This was an amazing launch of the lindes village project and I feel very thankful to represent a remiuri and all your viewer projects that we work with here in New York, New Jersey and nationally. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you, we need you. So, it's a very important part of your. You are very important part of the way making anyway. So good luck and lots of energy. Thank you, Thelma.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Perone cast. I'm your host, ryan Looper. Today's episode was produced by yours truly, theme music by the Julian Tamers. Special thanks to today's guests, the teams at Dumezon East and Dumezon selections and all of the growers in the Dumezon portfolio. Remember, if you turn the bottle around, you find the Perone is Dumezon and if you have a permanent party, you should really share that thing. Quit hogging it. Okay, pass the Perone. If you like the podcast, you want to find it on one of the platforms, just search the Perone cast, hit follow. We got lots more to come. We're also on the Instagram at the Perone cast. Look forward to sharing some more with you soon, thanks.
