The Porróncast
A Wine, Spirits and Non-Alc. Podcast spotlighting the stories of people who share the Porrón.
Hosted by Ryan Looper.
The Porróncast
Tina Vaughn of Eulalie, a 3-star NY Times Restaurant and Jewel Box of Hospitality
Tina Vaughn and her Chef/Partner/Husband Chip Smith received a 3-star NY times review in January of 2024 for their restaurant Eulalie, a jewel-box of hospitality in Tribeca.
In this episode, Tina recounts her journey from Rockette to restaurants, the mission of hospitality and how to pair wine fearlessly from a place of learning and gastronomy.
If a restaurant with only a phone number for reservations (no reservation system like Resy or Open table) that leads to a notoriously long voice-message and presents hand-written menus with food from a chef that cooked with Jean-Louis Palladin in a dining room where wine is poured fearlessly AND you can actually talk without shouting is what you crave (and why wouldn't you?), then Eulalie is a place for you.
This is the second 3 star NY times review for this talented couple. Their first was for The Simone, which opened in 2013 and closed in 2022 after the pandemic.
We shared two wines, and they were fan-tastic:
Find them anywhere that shares the porrón.
"I dwelt alone. In a world of moan, And my soul was a stagnant tide. Till the fair and gentle Eulalie became my blushing bride." Edgar Allen Poe.
Follow us on IG: @demaisoneast and @theporroncast
The Porróncast is hosted and produced by Ryan Looper - @iamlooper
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For deeper information on any producer featured on this episode click here and search producer name
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If you find a Porrón on the back label of a bottle, it is imported to the USA exclusively by the spectacular importer and team @dmselections
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Original Music by Julian Tamers - @juliantamers on IG and Tiktok
Welcome to the Peronecast.
Speaker 2:Tina, it's so great to see you. Welcome, tina from Oolali. She newly awarded three-star New York Times restaurant here in Tribeca, with Chef Chip Smith to talk about her journey to hospitality, her views on hospitality, rockette to restaurant and how to pair wines fearlessly. I can't get you a reservation. You gotta call like everybody else. Stay tuned, that's so good. You have a good voice, though. I like your voice a lot.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank goodness, because people have to listen to a lot of it on that voice mail.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we should jump in Back in. I believe it was 2014,. It was raining. I found myself walking down a quiet street on the Upper East Side and I walked down the stairs and I immediately I was having a terrible day. By the way I immediately smelled beautiful fresh bread.
Speaker 1:Mr Smith.
Speaker 2:And I immediately saw this dining room that was unlike 99.9% of the dining rooms in New York at the time. And then I met you and immediately connected with you and I came to just really love this amount very quickly. I fell in love and it felt like a throwback in the most beautiful way, in a way that's so current in Europe, which is you go to the country and folks are making something wonderful.
Speaker 1:It doesn't seem to go out of style there. It's funny to see in retro now, like my jean jacket I wear now and kids go. That's so cool, is that vintage? And I'm like, am I vintage? Sure, yeah, it's vintage, thank you. But we only copied what we experienced there when we would travel, which was not that often. You know, we would go every other year. We had a restaurant in the Outer Banks. So, needless to say, january, half of February, no one's there. Everyone takes off. My staff informed me when I first opened that they would be taking off and I was like what do you mean? She goes? Oh, there's nobody here. And I was like, oh, come on, shut up. You know there's no one in the Outer Banks. So, chippen, I would save up. I used to do faux finishing and mural work and I would paint all those fancy houses and I would save all that money and we would go to the countryside of France for five weeks every three days, pick up and drive somewhere without an agenda.
Speaker 2:Incredible, and so that's what informed the spirit of that restaurant.
Speaker 1:That, combined with Lutas Chanterelle, you know the people that you admired here in New York, that we always admired.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some of the classic classic restaurants that.
Speaker 1:And the original Daniel, the little Daniel, his first one before he became the king.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course there's this thing that happened with chefs where all of a sudden being a chef became you know, you could be a celebrity and it has a very, very positive effect because people are actually interested in chefs. I went to Lugger on Wee years ago and I asked the server who. I worked with the server in Carmine's way back in the day and I said who's the chef he goes. No one asked that. It just wasn't a thing.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And now it's a thing Now it's a.
Speaker 1:Thing.
Speaker 2:When you started the Simone, which is now gosh, 10 years ago 11. 11. Did you have any intuition that it would turn into a three star?
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, never Like when we first heard that we were being reviewed, we thought we just prayed we wouldn't get zero. Chip and I were like, oh no, he's going to give us zero because he doesn't like. He doesn't know that we used to live here, he doesn't know that I'm from here basically since I was 17.
Speaker 1:He doesn't like people coming in from out of town thinking they can open a New York restaurant, and even with Chip's lineage, even with the places that Chip worked with. So we thought that it was a goner. And it was May, end of May. We were already worried about the summertime on the Upper East Side, of course, because everybody goes to their extracurricular housing, and so I was like, oh, what are we going to do? This is going to be terrible. So in that hit it, you know, much like right now.
Speaker 1:To be honest, for January, saved our bacon, propelled us you know, forward much quicker than we would have propelled ourselves without some time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it got three stars and I used to always run around the city telling people it's the most unknown three-star restaurant in New York. It's very, perfectly secret and they couldn't get in.
Speaker 1:Perfectly secret and you're what and you're who. It is an interesting thing because it didn't change our focus at all. We did make some mistakes, I feel, which we're not doing here on purpose. We tried to do too many, we tried to do too much, we tried to add more seats and tables, so we didn't hold on to the element of what we do and we and this stage, you know, I recognize that, and so now here, I won't do it here.
Speaker 1:I am holding it to 36 seats. I'm holding it to a certain amount of night. The kitchen is able to do what the kitchen does.
Speaker 2:We can cut all this out. If you need to take it, take it. Reservation requests.
Speaker 1:I don't have. We're gonna just turn that off Of all the people to have her phone ring during a private conversation. Team on cell phone people.
Speaker 2:So hospitality has become such a buzzword.
Speaker 1:Well, as you and I talk about this for many years now. It needs to be, because hospitality in and of itself Can be considered a branding mechanism for some, depending on the approach. But hospitality as a concept, as a truth in what has actually, unfortunately, become Not nearly as expected anymore in New York. They like all the sexy hot spots that just to go there and be a part of it is fantastic, and COVID put a big hurt on hospitality when people came back to work and people came back to dine. We didn't have that experience really, which I'm I'm grateful for. But I heard from other people that Customers were, you know, so anxious to be back in that they sometimes weren't nice and sometimes really Clamoring to have everything and they could get in them because they missed it so much and servers in front of the house had had two years off of Understanding that maybe the direction of their lives could, could go elsewhere and they could do something else in their career that was not quite as stressful as handling people right, so it got a little formulaatic, just due to the fact that their a was very
Speaker 1:short staff so people had to really pitch in and do everything. It's still short staffed in the United States and Talking to people in France for them to there, everyone's still having trouble hiring to have the right amount. Then there's the cost of living factor. There's the people who you want to make sure they have a quality of life. You don't want to work them too much. You want to make sure they can live their lives and feel comfortable and pay bills and take care of their families and have two days off, which is why we're closed two days. Now.
Speaker 1:Chip is over there working and I worked and came here and we'll go back to work. But for us it's not a job, it's a lifestyle. We don't feel any pressure about it. The people that work for us in the kitchen are always like I don't know how you guys do it and I'm like what do you mean? And they go. Well, you know you're older than us and you're never tired and I was like, oh, you should. Sunday is like I, if I'm out of my Jimmy jams that you know, before three o'clock, that's a big feat. It's like goes from coffee to popcorn, to rosé, to wine, to dinner. That's the formula of Sundays.
Speaker 2:That sounds lovely, it is lovely, you know, you know.
Speaker 1:But we are fortunate, you know, we consider ourselves very lucky to have the opportunity to be back, open even, and to have people be so receptive To the way we do service, because we didn't change. It's the same way We've done it since the Outer Banks first restaurant in Kitty Hawk. We closed that.
Speaker 2:What was that restaurant called?
Speaker 1:Carolina blue. How disgusting, romantically, the color of the chef's eyes, mm-hmm. And then the other one was bonsoiré for have a good evening. Because I, when we first went to France, and they would say bonjournée and I didn't know any French, really very much when we first went and I would say, oh, we're not leaving yet, we just got here and they're like it means have a good day, and I went, oh, so bonsoiré means have a good night. Okay, and I just thought that was some cool that I named the restaurant have a good evening, whether you're coming or going. And then we have the Simone and and now we have Oolah Lee you've opened Oolah Lee.
Speaker 2:in January 16th of this year you got another three-star review. You've had two New York Times three-star reviews, which it's an incredible article. I hope everyone reads it and the reviews just fantastic. But I always think of you when I think of Just speaking to hospitality for a second, the difference between concept and practice and what it feels like when I'm in a restaurant that you, your team chip in the kitchen and his team put together. It's more like a hug. I want it's not too much, you know, it's just that that beautiful, welcoming, tasty evening and there's not, there's no magic tricks, there's no like wackiness, but but there's something so Pure about it.
Speaker 1:I think that someone asked me this the other night, a young man whose first time in. He said what is it? You said it's a lifestyle, but what is it that you enjoy why? Why do you enjoy doing it? And I said, well, I enjoy doing it because if I didn't enjoy it I shouldn't do it, because it would be a reflection on your experience for the evening and I enjoy you enjoying.
Speaker 1:That's the whole, that's the whole thing for us, and I enjoy chip being able to cook his food and not have any other stress as except to cook and Bring that out and make sure that you're happy with it. It's a whole circle. Our fulfillment and joy becomes your enjoyment. That's that's the reason. It's a.
Speaker 1:It's easy to do and it's never meant to be a second one or a third one or to have five restaurants.
Speaker 1:It's always meant to just be the one, organically so, and and it's hard for other people to do it if they're, if they're not, a couple that are working together and living together, and we are fortunate that we have done that all these years and somehow it just always works. Everyone's always fascinated that we live together and we work together, and I always say it's because each one of us has respect For what the other one does and we also have full confidence that it's going to be done. We never have to question each other. I know that the kitchen is going to be fine and if I say that, it's not he that another one takes it personally. It's let's go, and it's the same for the front of the house. If something happens and Chip says hey, I say let's go where we gotta. We have to get in front of it, not behind it, and no one takes offense. Everyone just Understands it's all together and that's because we're in it with them, as opposed to just pointing and saying do this, do that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's so resonant right now. It's very atypical In terms of the models that we see or the what we believe are the most important restaurants. Oftentimes they don't align with that today and it's.
Speaker 1:It's something that shifted and their goals are much bigger and much grander. And those people have so many layers of goals for their people and I look at some of their Positions and their jobs and what they handle and I think, good lord, I could never Wrap myself around what, what you're doing, that just wouldn't be my wheelhouse. My wheelhouse is get up, make coffee, return calls, pay bills, get on the subway, come to work. It used to be just go downstairs, but now we have to get on the subway. And then I get in check more phone calls, check in with the kitchen. My staff arrives, people walk in to say hello and try to make a reservation and meet me, and that's always welcome. We love that. We love people just wandering in.
Speaker 1:Then there's wine to be tasted and and the pairing to think about with chips, food and menu changes and it's just a constant. It's our own formula that works. That works. But when I think about those big, sexy jobs that I know that some people do, I think about all that they have to juggle and I'm like, wow, that's a lot. Mine's all compact and just my little house. It's um, it's both hard and easy. It's, uh, easier for us because it's what we do For them. It would be something that would be harder, perhaps Because they also have their own goals in mind about what they're striving for. It's become crazy, the faceted Business of what is hospitality and food. Now it's no longer just owning a restaurant, so it's kind of fun that it's working and that people like it.
Speaker 2:This is a perfect time to read A little excerpt from the New York Times review which I think is important for everyone to hear. I'll take a shot at it.
Speaker 1:I haven't even read the full article yet. Chips, so sad with me. I like really. Oh no, I was so stressed out about it coming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you texted me.
Speaker 1:I had such a headache, I was so worried. I was very worried and then I saw just a glimpse of it and I started to cry and then I never picked the paper up to finish reading. Everybody's like you haven't read the paper yet and I was like, sitting it's in my bed desk, I'm gonna read it. I promise I'm gonna read it all the way through. So talk to me, ryan, read me. I read me an excerpt.
Speaker 2:This is for Oolali, reviewed by Pete Wells three stars. It's hard to remember now, but not long ago smart restaurants saw the reservation phone calls a chance to make you feel welcome, even if your meal was still a month away. Conversation was the start of something. If you were lucky, something nice. Today it's almost never that Reservations or commodities they're bought, traded, set aside for American Express card holders and Scalped by whoever can build the fastest bot. At best, securing a prime table can make you feel like you've won some low stakes game in the world's most boring casino. Oolali is not part of this casino. It seems likely clueless about tiktok trends, plating trends, wine trends and just about any other trend you can think of. It will probably strike some people as hopelessly dated, but I suspect that for many more it will be a welcome break from the impersonal transactional feeling so many New York restaurants leave you with these days. How about that?
Speaker 1:How about that? And you know it is true, someone asked me before this review. That was a new guest. They said are you ever going to do open table or a Rezi? I said I'm not. And he said how come? And I said, well, without even that article in front, I said I see the phone call as me getting to know you. When I returned your call, it is me already knowing who you are hearing, what your voice sounds like, putting a relationship together so that when you walk in I'm already know you by voice and I'm ready to see you in person. And I already felt like you and I have a conversation going.
Speaker 2:There is something so wonderful about the voice connecting. Just hearing someone's voice, mm-hmm, it makes a big difference and I confess I used to just look forward to the moment I would call and I would get your voicemail, because it's Exceedingly long and it's your voice and it's you having fun. There's a little tongue-in-cheek always, oh yeah, and it just feels so right and Feels like you, like you and ship, like what you do in a voice message.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's what it's supposed to purvey that way. If you don't, if you're not into it, it's not your place to come Then it allows you to not make a reservation as well. Chip cooks. He does not try to be cutting edge, he just wants to make food that's delicious and that you take a bite. I'm go oh my god, that is delicious. It doesn't have to change the world, we just want you to change your day. Maybe have you had a bad day. It makes your day better. And then the wine pairing has always been organic. It's all about the entire dish, not just the protein or it has to capture, encapsulate the entire bite of the food, and so that's fun putting that together for people and having fun with people and how we do it. And no, we are not the place for everybody, and that took me a long time to not be upset about. Like really.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, I would have people come and I could. I could tell they didn't have a good time and it would. I would like beat myself up overnight. I would try to think what happened. I would back in the day I used to call people. I used to say, if would you like to share? And you know people would say things like no, we just didn't think you were all that and I would be like, well, okay. Now I've learned that, like music and art and anything else, that's a creative project. You cannot make everyone happy. You can want to and try to, but it could just not be their jam and you can't be offended by it.
Speaker 2:You just have to keep going South, godin Says in answer to that sort of feedback Maybe it's not for you. And isn't that so simple and beautiful? It's just like I want to take a break and then come back and talk About gastronomy. Okay, and wine pairing yummy. You're listening to the Peron cast. I'm here with Tina Vaughan from Oolalli and we're back. What is the first time you can remember being moved by a dish?
Speaker 1:Well, when I got into the restaurant industry was a fluke. It wasn't because I was interested in food, I was the other way. I never ate. You know, I tried to maintain a mean weight of 128 pounds Because I was dancing and acting and a different life. As things happen, I had met Larry Foggia many moons ago when I first moved to New York. I came up early because I was hired out of high school by the Rockettes, so of course I wanted to get up to New York. I was 17 years old. I lied about my age. I got a job at the River Cafe on the patio because they didn't at that time put women in the dining room.
Speaker 2:Larry Foggia was the chef there when I was working there incredible. This is the father of Mark Forgeone and one of the father of regional American cuisine basically.
Speaker 1:So Years go by, I go to LA, the Rockettes went to LA. I went to LA, I was in Life Magazine. I didn't realize I was featured in an article and Larry Forgeone was featured in the same issue of a bunch of chefs. Years go by. I'm walking down Lexington Avenue. This guy turns around and said, didn't you work at River Cafe years ago? And I turned around and I was like, yeah, like four years ago he goes. Oh yeah, you were in Life Magazine and I was in Life Magazine. I could not remember who he was, of course, because I'm like not into food and he goes you want to make a? I have to go to England. I'm taking a big staff with me. I have to go do a guest chef. You want to work at the restaurant for two weeks and hang out and be a hostess? And I was like, sure, cash, he goes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:This is like not recognizing today Bobby Flay or someone walking by.
Speaker 1:And then he says and I'll feed you. I said, well, I don't need, but thank you, I'll just take the cash and can I go to auditions? And we had this whole thing and he said, sure, so I go. And I worked for two weeks, did my thing, left. Bonnie was the manager there.
Speaker 1:Bonnie's dream was to be out in the Hamptons and work for Nick and Tony's. She'd been with Larry a while and she gave her notice. She got the job, she moved out to the, she's moving and Larry goes. What am I going to do? You have that something on the dining room floor that all the guests love, because she was also back in the day. She was older than me at the time but she was a dancer and she loved guests and they loved her. And she goes. Well, find that girl that was here because the guests ask about her. Still, he goes, she's not in the restaurant business. She goes I don't know call and ask if she wants a job.
Speaker 1:So I was in between gigs and I had done a couple of commercials. But you don't really make any money until they start running. I go in. I had the interview, I do my thing about auditions and I'm an artist, so I go in and I'm training and Chip had finished his externship. And this is a story he tells and I'm still not certain it's not a made up story. But he comes in with his brother for dinner because when you finish with your externship, larry buys you dinner. He's at CIA, up at the culinary. So Bonnie said, oh, go to that table and open wine for that table, because you don't know a lot about wine yet. And he says open up the wine and it won't matter, he's with his brother and he's a student.
Speaker 2:He's a chef.
Speaker 1:He's a chef and he was so young he looked like a child, chip was so young. So I go over and I open the thing and I walk away and apparently his brother says that Chip says if I can get her on a date, she's mine forever.
Speaker 2:Wonderful.
Speaker 1:And that's the true story. And then I realized how talented Chip was. And there came a time about six months went by, eight months, and I went for a call back for some director who wanted to see me and I said I'm sorry, I'm out of wine tasting and my agent went I'm sorry, who's this on the telephone? Oh, I'm sorry, I'm dating a chef and I might be done. But thanks for all the help all these years. And I literally left Cunningham, j Michael Bloom, I was working actress and started learning everything I could about wine and we went down to DC.
Speaker 2:He worked for Jean Louis, I worked for Jean Louis Palladin, which is a name that, strangely enough, does not get around very much these days. A master. Yeah, one of the true greats, and I watched him on PBS From Gasgul A master from Gasgul, I mean.
Speaker 1:Then we went to the Inland Washington and they don't hire couples, but I worked in DC and there you go, and from there we just kept rolling.
Speaker 2:What are the things about Chip's food that you find easy to pair with wine?
Speaker 1:He has. He cooks everything separate and assembles it, and the sauce is still done separately. He makes sauces. Sauce is poured table side and the sauces are never overly like to something that sometimes they do.
Speaker 2:They're never too saucy.
Speaker 1:They're never too saucy, they don't need that. They got me. But he doesn't do anything too out of the box, which, organically, I have to say, 50% of the time. Wine pairings do the job for me. The wine in the food does it for me.
Speaker 1:You just have to pay attention to what you're tasting. You have to pay attention to what's in the wine. It is ironic how sometimes a dish inspired by a region, the wine from that region just automatically goes with it. It just automatically loves each other. Then you have things like crab meat and wine from Switzerland, which is like that's bizarre, but they love each other. So you just have to taste the whole essence and then find the nuances, and that's what we do. That's how I learned about wine primarily. I'm not a pin-simole gay. I'm not as educated as many of my peers who are so amazing. I won't name someone's name, sarah, but all of these people at least Granik, john McElwain, all these people who I so admire because they are so learned I go to tasting just to hear them talk about wine. Take my notes, go share it with my staff.
Speaker 2:What I love. You're on the floor just to describe this. So we've got a long voice message. We've got handwritten menus at both restaurants. We've got a chef who cooked with Paladins, who cooked with Four Joan, we've got you who's. You guys have built restaurants together for a long time and what I've always noticed is you're so fearless with splashing and pairing wine outside of the norm and maybe, maybe even not having all of that background offers a new palette for dishes and for your choices. You seem to be fearless. Is that actually true?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that because I didn't learn the way that others maybe do, I only learned about it from tasting food and then having a wine, because this is how it happened. And then I would go back to the food and I would be like, wow, that tastes awful now. And then I would taste the wine. I was like, did that affect my food? Then did the food affect my wine? And then I said I wonder how often that happens in a restaurant where people say, oh, I don't, I don't like Reese's, I don't like champagne, I don't like uh burros, and you think why?
Speaker 1:Who gave you a bad glass of wine? We need to fix this immediately. And so that's what I realized is, if that changed the way, and because I didn't drink a lot before, it was a new learning thing for me. I think that what I was tasting and how it affected it, you know, came, came about, and that's how I just learned about wine, as I kept going, going, going and never thought to take a class. You know the past 15, 15 years, you know all of the wine sexiness and all the learning and all the careers are very new.
Speaker 2:And so true.
Speaker 1:And very multi-tiered and very like dynamic. All these people are doing things that I never would have even known existed.
Speaker 2:And there's so much more wine from so many places. That's better than it was 15 years ago.
Speaker 1:So much more, although I will happily say that I was pouring Swiss wine in the outer banks when I first started, because I loved it. People thought I was crazy. I poured Gurgic's plavik molly by the glass. Plavik molly Incredible. People are like what is that? I said it's from Croatia. Is that the most delicious thing you've ever had? They're like do you have any? Uh, hess, cabernet, and I would like. No, I have plavik molly.
Speaker 2:I'd love to play a fun, some game with you. Ok, a very short one. So some people tune in and they're not in the wine business. They want to hear some insider stuff. So I'm going to throw a couple things and I just want to hear what Tina would pair.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:I did a Google search the hardest things to pair just to give you a little bit of a curve.
Speaker 1:I can imagine artichokes are one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, artichokes are always coming up as one of the hardest things to pair. What do you like with artichokes?
Speaker 1:So artichokes like muscato giallo, from which is the yellow muscat grape, and it also can be paired sometimes with a Melonda Bargona. It wants something that's a little more pithy and earthy, like it is, because it's that it's a sauce catcher. Artichokes are sauce catchers. So when you go vinaigrette, you got to go muscato giallo, and when you go with something that's earthier, it's done with chicken stock or it's part of a dish, say it's being served with chicken or pork or quail Then you have to think about the composed bite and how it works together, and then I would lean towards even a rosé from Italy, which is otherwise known as oh.
Speaker 2:Tiberand.
Speaker 1:Tiberand from Provence. We just talked about this on Saturday night, Also with artichokes. It has to be a savory rosé. It cannot be a springy, summery, bright, sassy rosé. It has to be one with some texture and age on it.
Speaker 2:What do you love with foie gras?
Speaker 1:Foie gras. I never go dessert level because you and I talked about this one night. When you go dessert level at the beginning of your meal to reset your taste buds is very difficult to have your taste buds come back to you. So one of my favorite things is going to be pina grea, a single vineyard type of pina grea. Because of the texture. I also like a mignet from Switzerland with foie gras. That's probably right up there with my number one. Also recently, Jure and Sain, we've discovered the demi, not the dry, not the sweet. The one that falls right in the middle, the one that's just off dry and has a little weight, is delicious with foie gras.
Speaker 2:It depends on how the foie gras is, but it seems like sherry can be a good thing. It's just not always the right thing to do at the beginning, but it can be because sherry can open the palate.
Speaker 1:Well, I think sherry, if you do in a montialo right and it has a little nuttiness and it depends on, like you say, how the foie gras is done. If the foie gras has citrus, you're going to have to go Jure and Sain are pina grea because of the citrus flavors. And even when you go down to Spain, maybe do the mountain Bronco right the muscat from. Andalusia. Yes, you can maybe do that.
Speaker 2:From Malaya.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because of the citrus notes, the orange.
Speaker 2:What about tomatoes and tomatoes in season? What do you love to pair?
Speaker 1:Tomatoes which even in God help me, don't anyone in an Italian restaurant hate me, but I never do red wine with tomato sauce. I always want white wine with fresh tomatoes, and again, it depends on how it comes on the plate. Is it salt and pepper and just the tomatoes of the season? Then that wants to be, depending on how ripe they are. We are not blessed with great tomato season every year, so you're always searching for that. It's like searching for red burgundy. Right, the tomato. But I like not Rosé, usually a white, not French, except maybe the roll grape, maybe Corsica. I like the roll grape when it's done in Corsica. I also like blends are always easy because it captures notes. That's why blends are amazing, because they offer you so much from so many different things. Shennan, depending on the style of Shennan, not super dry, wants to be off dry with the tomato. And then, going back to Italy, some vernaccio, some verdicchio, depends on the pecorino.
Speaker 2:Those are great Maybe.
Speaker 1:Zibibbo.
Speaker 2:Oh, a little Zibibbo. Last one, chocolate, seems to be something that's argued about a lot. What do? You like to pair with? Again, we're being pretty generic here. It's not a specific dish, but what is a chocolate pairing that you like?
Speaker 1:Vanuels.
Speaker 2:Vanuels is so great.
Speaker 1:Vanuels for smoky chocolate and for chocolate that's an accompaniment to any nut, would be rivissalt. And again sherry, but sherry on the PX side, maybe even not the PX side, but olorosa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got olorosa For me also. Some of the creams can go very well Cream sherry.
Speaker 1:Cream sherry with hazelnut and chocolate is a fantastic thing. And almonds yeah, so it depends on how the chocolate is used, but I find that with pure chocolate it's hard to beat Vanuels.
Speaker 2:Vanuels is such a beautiful place.
Speaker 1:It's so pretty there and rivissalt is right.
Speaker 2:Not so far away.
Speaker 1:Not so far away.
Speaker 2:A little shameless plug. We're drinking two sherrys from the D'Amazon portfolio the Perron's. On the back. Always We've got Manuel Aragon Fino Granero, so he's from Chiclana. This is a very specific sherry. So he owns his vineyards, he farms them organically, he makes his wines, he ages his wines and there's not a lot of people that do that. It's exceedingly rare and I love when sherry. For me it's about salt, it's about chalk, it's about echo, how it stays on the palate and there is a freshness feel.
Speaker 2:So it's really beautiful and then right next to it. I thought I rarely get to sit with you and talk for this long. So this is the Montialo Antiquario from El Maestro Sierra, which is a bottle of wine that some of the sherry in that goes back to 1830, which is the sherry that the proprietress poured for Andre when he first visited and that started the relationship with El Maestro Sierra.
Speaker 1:And that's what I mean about learning from people. You give all these beautiful points about all the stuff that I'm supposed to know about. When it comes to the wine and the whole time I've been sitting here, you know, basically glugging the sherry, I'm thinking salty ham and cheese sandwich, sardines with fresh herbs, wild striped bass with clams.
Speaker 2:Let's do that tonight.
Speaker 1:Let's do that tonight, and you know, pasta with lobster. That's the first one, and then on the second one I'm thinking cheese and nuts and I mean that's what happens when I drink any kind of wine, like when people say, what do you do when you taste wine? I said I'm immediately thinking about what can it go with, and is it in the season for those things for us? Yet?
Speaker 2:That's one of the things that strikes me, because a lot of times we on in the wine world, the industry, we get so technically focused and we lose track of the gastronomy of things that these things are meant to be at table Basically. That's what wine is right.
Speaker 1:It's part of your gastronomy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It is, you know, wine unlike liquor, and I appreciate that people also want to pair liquor with dinner and do cocktails. I appreciate that. But when you think in essence of especially wine from the, from old countries and small villages all over the world, they don't. They don't think about their day without wine and food going together and they almost seems like, subconsciously, the wines that are from their regions. Mother Nature seems to have known what to give them to grow to go with the food that they're making. There is no doubt that they go together, right.
Speaker 2:That's so true when years ago this was might have been 07 or 08. I was at Blue Ribbon Wine Bar and I was served a foie gras torchon with some of that El Maestro Sierra Montiado Antiquario, the old cherry, and it was like a thunder clap of flavor.
Speaker 2:I have never since then had such an epiphany like moment with Sherry and it's just driven me since and shout out to Sean and Sam Kevin, all the people that were there at that bar at that time and it's just an incredible thing to be able to taste such antique wines that have such they're just so long. I mean, this wine is still going.
Speaker 1:Totally still going. I mean, you can have this particular well, this one too. Like I said, you can drink this with any kind of kind of beautiful Fresh fish dish, but the a month y'all, though, can go with quail. I.
Speaker 2:Love stuff quail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it could go with duck, depending on the preparation. You know it's a given that they both go with roast chicken. It's interesting to think about Sherry's the more you taste them, the more they capture you. We don't taste or drink enough of them just because we don't. But Spain's become so popular in travel and now people come back and you pour Sherry and no one says, oh, I don't want that. Everyone says, oh, cool, what kind of Sherry is it? And you're like, yay, thanks for travel years ago.
Speaker 2:You had to give it away.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, but now they all, like we were chip changed something for the middle treat to guest right and so we were talking and I was trying to think about what I want with the middle treat and I said, well, I definitely abyssal, I want abyssal, that would be amazing with this. And I'm thinking, and then I'm staring at my stuff and I was like what is wrong with me this is it won't share. It's looking right at me, it's right there. Lobster bisque, a canal of lobster scallop.
Speaker 2:Shrimp mousse with Paragord truffle dear Lord, I Don't even know what to say. That sounds so good.
Speaker 1:You pour it for everybody and everybody drinks it. They're like oh my god, I'm like right on right.
Speaker 2:This is what I mean about fearless, and something I admire about you.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, you've got to listen to what the plate and the glass is talking to you. You can't, you have to be in that conversation with it. You know, I always say to people they say how did you learn so much about wine? And I said I'm still learning. Because if I, if I'm not learning, if I'm not saying I'm learning all the time, that means I stopped tasting, that means I stopped tasting what I'm tasting, I Letting it be a given. Some things are classical and fun for me to do that are so crazy that they go together and I never change it. I do it all the time because it's so crazy, like Caesar salad, the way Chip makes a Caesar Giverts to me now, giverts to me now and Caesar salad it will blow your head off.
Speaker 2:That is like a curveball and a knuckleball all in all, yeah and people still come.
Speaker 1:I did this on the outer banks Was my first pairing. People still come up and say good much to me. I said, yeah, man, let's do it.
Speaker 2:Of all the things to be known for. It's so great. I know what is inspiring you now in the wine world. Is there anything that's new or something that people should look out for that you've Discovered recently?
Speaker 1:There's always just so much. Recently, over before we got open, I got to go to wines from Uruguay and which I never even knew they made wine there, and so that was interesting to discover with Josh, our friend Josh Green. I'm always excited when people now I don't I don't go out very much anymore for tastings because we're too busy but I'm always excited when people bring me a bag of wine knowing that I'm gonna be the one to pair it and sell it for you. I'm gonna put that in front of somebody. They're gonna go retail and buy it the champagne you pour from us.
Speaker 2:Broker Pierre is just an insanely delicious, delicious glass bottle of wine and it's so unique it's not like any other champagnes I've had.
Speaker 1:I mean champagnes for dinner, champagnes for popcorn, champagnes with scrambled eggs. It doesn't really matter when you have champagne, as long as you're having it. But in the recent year of, champagne's become quite a Artisanal small-house champagne's, aren't we? Aren't we all lucky to be tasting all of these smaller production?
Speaker 2:This is one of the big changes, isn't it? It's something that is kind of it's just happened and we think it's normal now, but it wasn't so long ago that there were so few. I Remember Jim onee was one of the few names that was a grower champagne. I was like grower champagne. What does that even mean?
Speaker 1:That's right. And now you just keep. Now we're hungry for all of it because it's a, it's a micro expression from small people who get small amount of land. And so I like to do small houses of Anything I can, because we're small house, I'm small house. I like to support those who are also hands-on, family run at their places, intent on the work, intent on the product, intent on getting it to you, intent on you enjoying it, happy that you're buying it. You know I don't need to.
Speaker 1:I have customers. I have very learned, knowledgeable customers. And wine. They all have sexy wine sellers. They all buy and collect. They don't need me to collect for them. They have their own beautiful burgundies and Bordeaux and Shatinoff de Pops and northern run. They don't need me to find those for them. They have found themselves. When they come in to see me, they want to know what I found that they have not heard of yet, that they haven't discovered yet. And they know I'm tasting it and they know I'm not tasting it. Just to be different. It just happens that the different is what goes with food. The different that I find is what Captures the trotter. It's what captures the sweet bread we I was just telling you how I poured 2014 Cannadelle rosé 2014 Cannadelle rosé, which is no longer super fruity it's savory and Irby and sexy Viscosity on the palate. It has this weight on your tongue that just keeps going bandol rosé Gets Really special with age, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what made Tompeanot Become Tompeanot over the years was the collectability of it, the aging. But I poured that with sweet breads and hedgehog mushrooms and reduced chicken stock the other night and that was Heaven. It was, a bite of each was heaven.
Speaker 2:I'm salivating. So good that sounds so good and again I was having trouble.
Speaker 1:Oh, do I still have the 14 Cannadelle rosé? My team was like rosé with sweet breads. I said, trust me, let's go for this, open it, let's see what it tastes like together. And we do. We taste it with the food. You know we'll order it. So they're learning the same way and they're all so great, this team. I've always been blessed with a good front of the house team who want to learn. But they're just in there swinging with me. It's like an ensemble. We all work like an ensemble.
Speaker 2:You got to be able to swing. What is For you, if you had to describe the experience of Oolali, what is it like? Because a lot of people are gonna hear this and they're gonna want to come. I'm just curious what your vision of the experiences?
Speaker 1:I always say that it is as if you Were able to take a quick vacation and didn't pay for plane fare, because it's the same experiences when you walk into a small town that you just got off the plane, you got into your hotel and I'm not talking Paris, of course. I'm talking countryside, I'm not talking Milan, talking in the hillsides of of San Gimiano, and and then you walk down the cobbled street and you tuck into some restaurant You've never heard of and and it's Exceptional it's magic, right, because it's a whole.
Speaker 1:It captures every sensory that you're wanting to experience. You're not thinking about work, you're not thinking about Pretention, you're not thinking about things that cause you stress. You have released yourself to the trip, and dinner becomes Part of that release, right. It's part of of of your soul, and when you come to see us, that's all we want to do is have you would walk into the door and leave your day behind you and Forget that you had any troubles for the day. That's the goal.
Speaker 2:That is so beautiful, and so that's exactly what it's like. Thank you so much for being on the Perron cast today. It's so wonderful to see you.
Speaker 1:I love seeing you. Thank you, Ryan. See you soon, or Frank Sorry.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening to the Perron cast. I'm your host, ryan Looper. Today's episode was produced by yours truly, the music by the Julian Tamers. Special Thanks to today's guests, the teams at Dumezon East and Dumezon selections and all of the growers in the Dumezon portfolio. Remember you turn the bottle around, you find the Perron, it's Dumezon and if you have a permanent party, you should really share that thing. Quit hogging it. Okay, past the Perron. You like the podcast? You want to find it on one of the platforms? Just search the Perron cast, hit follow. We got lots more to come. We're also on the Instagram at the Perron cast. Look forward to sharing some more with you soon. Thanks.
